YAAIT (Yet another AI Thread)

[Zehnchu]

Hero’s AI

Acolyte Sousuke & Zhed Shadowhoof : often will ignore a called target and both will run off to attack another target even when flagged, pulling henchmen/hero monks past a flag point just to heal them.

Caster hero’s kitting will some time’s run a path behind the enemy AI and stop on the other side. Also caster will run off before melee hero’s to attack first.

All hero’s will run back to attack a group if a minion is left behind and fighting.

[Blackhawk]

One word sums up this "new" AI since the update - CRAP

If this is a feature then I'm afraid the next chapter might not "feature" so many players who have been with GW since the very beginning and are pretty annoyed with it as they'll just go play something else.

[ChaoticCoyote]

My daughter's monk and my ranger went capping last night on all three continents, and we noticed some odd differences in the behavior of the "new" AI.

Or, more correctly, everything was "normal" in Cantha (Rhea's Crater, Shenzun Tunnels, Echovald). No weird kiting, no non-boss monsters with exceptional aggro bubbles.

The story in Tyria was a tad different.

We were doing the Titan quest in Mineral Springs for my daughter's character, a healing monk. I've done these quests before with other characters, several times, and I've been to Mineral Springs on dozens of expeditions over the last year. Something has changed.

On our way through Tasca's Demise, we encountered the large group of Titans near the North exit, and things went "badly". My daughter's monk, as she always has, kited away, back down the "safe" road. One of the Titan "Hearts" followed her.

The monk ran, the titan would go off her radar, she would stop, and the titan (alone) would reappear shortly. In fact, my daughter's monk ran ALL THE WAY to Granite Citadel's gate; a few moments later, the titan appears on her radar again, still following.

This is not how it used to work, and it makes group recovery almost impossible. It makes no sense for one lone titan to chase a monk across the map from OUTSIDE radar range! There is no point now in one or two survivors trying the Rebirth a group, since aggro *never* breaks.

Please don't tell me the monk should have waited... she did wait, once the Titan was long gone off her radar, and every time she stopped, the Titan would reappear on her radar after a few moments, no matter how far she had run.

The next anomaly was seen on Kessex Peak, while I was doing a bit of mapping. Again: I've been to Kessex Peak numerous times with various characters, with and without Galrath's quest active, and something has changed.

In this case, it was wild kiting by the followers of Verata. By "wild", I mean running all over like roaches exposed to the sun! The problem wasn't getting our party killed, it was that we couldn't catch the buggers to kill them! It took an hour to clean out that mob. Poor Koss ran himself ragged!

I've had little or no problem with either of these issues in Elona or Cantha. But in Tyria... well, things aren't going so well in my ranger's homeland.

I'd appreciate clarification from Gaile as to whether what I've described is correct behavior. I do know this: Something changed in the last few weeks. Was it intentional or not?

[Beat_Go_Stick]

Originally Posted by Amity and Truth

Aggrozealous Kiters (Enemies, Henchies and Heroes Unite!)
Description: If you start to annoy an AI Monk enough he will start running. While he does so, he is moving in random patterns. This is a good change, kiting is important. So once again, why list it here? And once again, it has some quirks and problems.

What is happening:
While the monk is kiting he doesn't pay any attention as to where he is actually running.

What is the problem:
Sooner or later, the kiting monk be it friend or foe will run into another mob. If it is your monk he'll happely aggro another mob onto you, probably resulting in a total desaster and partywipe. And if he doesn't aggro another mob, he'll run away a great deal, effectively taking him out of the game for a while (Dunkoro ran that far away that his name greyed out once -.-)
This is extremely annoying as it feels like totally being out of control, something you couldn't do anything about as for some strange a kiting monk ignores movement orders.
But this also affects you if you're playing with players. Often enough the enemy monk starts running the second you target him. And he will run away from you in a straight line, straight into other mobs and patrols. If you chase him, you'll aggro more enemies. If you let him run, he'll be back in time to heal that specialy "buddy" of yours.

What should be changed:
Hero and Henchmen monks should never run away further than the dangerzone of their respective "owner". This basically means the monk will have to kite in circles and the center of the circle will be the Teamleader. Also, enemy monk should abide to the same behavior, they shouldn't run into other mobs.
On a sidenote, ever noticed that the kournan priests are the worst? They actually start running towards you and then invite you for a runner's marathon :P

I think this is a great idea so long as a flag overrides it and makes that spot the center for the dangerzone. There are times I don't want my Monk inside my danger zone but want to keep him on the outskirts healing me. If I could set a flag and know that he would never let that flag leave his healing range, I could better plan for his safety.

I would also love to have a "Path Pen" for the mini-map. When selected you can draw a path for a hero or henchies and they will follow it.

The last thing I would like to see is a Henchie/Hero "attack" button. No arguments about range, no questions asked, just freakin' attack that target no matter where I am and pound away until it's dead dead dead. The whole attack range thing is a little weird.

Overall, the AI improvements they've made since Prophecies are amazing (I just started really playing again this week). Softies kite my scythe better than most people in Random Arena, requiring a cripple attack to make short work of them. Henchies and Heroes can wait in ambush while I pull the enemy back to a safety zone. I can only imagine how nice it will be to play a caster type now that you can really make sure the warrior Hero goes first.

Loving Nightfall....feels great to be free again after the 3rd person hallway crawler that was Factions. The AI is awesome and I hope they continue to hone it to the point where it's like playing against people controlling both our allies and the enemy

edit:

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

One word sums up this "new" AI since the update - CRAP

If this is a feature then I'm afraid the next chapter might not "feature" so many players who have been with GW since the very beginning and are pretty annoyed with it as they'll just go play something else.

And this helps how? Don't post just to post, please. There are countless places and threads to bitch about the new AI. Leave this one for real constructive criticism and helpful ideas. You help nothing with that kind of comment and the OP specifically asked (very nicely, I might add) to save it for another thread

[Blackhawk]

Originally Posted by Beat_Go_Stick

And this helps how? Don't post just to post, please. There are countless places and threads to bitch about the new AI. Leave this one for real constructive criticism and helpful ideas. You help nothing with that kind of comment and the OP specifically asked (very nicely, I might add) to save it for another thread

Seeing as it wont get fixed, it doesnt really matter what gets said here as A-net havent even bothered to comment on any of the other threads across various forums or made any changes in the last update, and the only way they might listen is when sales are down when the next chapters released because the majority of the playerbase has gone elsewhere.

That constructive enough for you?

[Eviance]

Ok here is what I do not understand. Some people have NEVER experienced any of these issues, some have experiences maybe ONE of the issues... I have personally experienced them all!

I wish this were a "learn2play" thing but I really don't believe it is. I'm not playing any differently than before and I never had problems before, so why should it be different now? I understand the new AI features and what was intended and so forth and when not experiencing these oddities I do fine - but when I am experiencing things such as the OP has stated and then some, what I see is not as what was described as "features", if it is, well then.... ;_;
Obviously there is SOME issues or we wouldn't have so many going "this happens" and others going "never had it happen". Seems kinda unfair for some of us to be totally trashed on the field while others are having a grandly leisure time about it...
As ChaoticCoyote said it does really seem to differ in each continent. I have absolutely NO issues in Factions except the VERY VERY rare agro lock - so rare its not worth mentioning at all the grand scheme as to me it seems more like a glitch and the agro lock usually dies.
In Elona we usually don't have many problems, but there is the occassional runner or odd agro of the zone and so forth, but its not EXTREMELY common. In Tyria all monsters are either taunting little chickens or heroic monsters looking to make king of the mountain and chase you till DEATH!...

I'm sorry I have seen such variety and oddness that I cannot believe that ANYONE would think that everything is working as intended. However if Anet wants to look for the best examples of what we think is odd they should indeed check Tyria first as it will surely give them the best example for most of the above cases.


Blackhawk, take your opinions to another one of those threads then, we are TRYING for one that the devs don't have to wade through spam posts in order to find precise issues.

[Velath]

I've had experiences with 1, 2 and 4, and find all quite annoying.

The other night in the Depths of Madness I was getting aggro-lock quite badly and after trying to have Dunkoro rebirth the team for probably 20 mins I just resigned and returned to the outpost. I do understand why they might like that, but with no possible way to actually rez your team it's frustrating and makes you want to get rid of that skill anyway! Hopefully this is unintended but if not it would be nice to hear which way.

Other than these issues though I think the new AI is an improvement and GJ ANet.

The aggro-lock was with my Canthan born Assassin (obviously yes I know) with Dunkoro, Master of Whispers and Sanosuke and 4 henchies. (Gaile was asking for these details in another thread). Haven't had any issues with my sin in Tyria but I haven't really spent much time out there other than for a couple of caps and to go kill Glint.

[Mr_T_bot]

The ally monk kiting is driving me nuts. Tahlkoro cosnsitently runs out of Ward of Harm, around the map, and into another mob to avoid damage, and when she stops moving it is usually only because she is getting pounded instead of doing something smart.

[Blackhawk]

Originally Posted by Eviance

Blackhawk, take your opinions to another one of those threads then, we are TRYING for one that the devs don't have to wade through spam posts in order to find precise issues.

Seeing as the OP pretty much summed it up in his first post, I'd say they wouldn't exactly have to look very far now would they, which suggests they're not exactly bothered about it and are obviously more concerned with keeping the whingers who complained about having no Divine Aura happy.

[Beat_Go_Stick]

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

Seeing as the OP pretty much summed it up in his first post, I'd say they wouldn't exactly have to look very far now would they, which suggests they're not exactly bothered about it and are obviously more concerned with keeping the whingers who complained about having no Divine Aura happy.

Seeing as how you are not contributing to this thread at all, I don't see why you are bothering to post beyond the standard emo bs of "A.Net never reads so don't even ask them to change things".

Seriously, there are some good suggestions in this thread and the thing that makes a dev stop reading are posts like yours. Your constructive post was just a more elaborately phrased vesrion of your first.

Just take a deep breath, resist hitting the reply button, and let those of us who want this to be a light-hearted "we like the AI and we would like it even more if..." thread have our say. There's nothing to be gained by contributing uselessness except making yourself look like a troll.

I try to minimalize my stay in threads that I don't agree with. I'm asking you nicely to do the same You've said your peace and responded to us, now let us play happily and see if there's some more ideas out there that can hopefully reach a devs eyes

[Sidra]

Another possible problem could be the super-aggro. It seems to work very much like your spotter description, but the group has no spotters. It seems to happen randomly (I've had it twice, once in the Pre-Nightfallen Garden, and somewhere else in Kourna :-P) where a mob just comes in from OFF the minimap (spotters seem to have a 2 or 3x larger radius of aggro, these come in from anywhere) and immediately set to beating the shit out of your party. It gets very frustrating, but people have only reported localized instances (from what I've seen) so it's not very publicized. Nice thread, BTW.

[Clord]

I still like this thread how it actually try to asnwer why something is happening. Analysing AI is quite easy but few pay attention how AI works so this thread is useful indeed. Still it is mostly when I get resurrected and hero or henchmen who survived teleport to me after resurrection. Enemy group still keep that target until they reach it.

[Gorebrex]

Im now thinking it has something to do with targeting. I recently noticed(hadnt thought about it before) that if you target somethong/one, and then travel so its off radar, and target display disappears, then go back some, it will reappear without being re-targeted. I think maybe that because mobs dont stop chasing you, they get you "auto-targeted" when youre in radar range, and thats why they come at you from radar range. Not sure, but a possibility.

[Epinephrine]

Originally Posted by Amity and Truth

Also, enemy monk should abide to the same behavior, they shouldn't run into other mobs.

I don't think this makes sense.

Either learn to spike the monk out, or ignore him and finish off his buddies. Running into other mobs makes it fun, you have to learn not to just follow blindly.

One thing I'd like though? Make sure they don't run into areas that automatically kill party members but for some reason don't affect them in missions.

Through chance, a priest in the Consulate Docks mission ran through the fire on the bridge near the start. He's part of a group that you MUST kill to continue the mission, but was in an area that instantly kills party members. Being a priest he was very difficult to wand to death, as the party didn't have a ton of ways to deal with him. It's frustrating to have to dig around for spare wands to equip your heroes with to wand a guy you can't get to.

[PersephoneSaturna]

I've experienced everyone of these issues as well.

My worst case was with my necro. I was fighting a boss mob with heroes & henchs when a patrol joined the fray. While trying to retreat, the few surviving heroes/henches kited instead in a circular path and died, leaving me alone, chased by a monk corsair.

No matter how far I ran, the corsair wouldn't stop chasing me, so I decided to stop and attempt to kill it. With the first hit from my wand, the corsair turned around to run back. When I followed, it kept on running. Annoying, but I thought: fine, I'll stop for now to regenerate and deal with it later. But the second I stopped, it turned around and attacked me again.

For the next 5 minutes, whenever I tried to attack it, wanding or spell, the first hit (the corsair is at full health) would prompt it to run. If I follow, it will flee further. But, if I disengage, it would return to harass me. I couldn't kill it, being built as a minion master with no snaring skills, but it couldn't kill me either, as I could heal myself as well as it could. Not a very fun stalemate.

Deciding to ignore the monk corsair, I decided to run back and resurrect my team. As I approached the area where my heroes & henches fell, I noticed a few red dots speeding my way. It was either the remnants of the boss mob or the patrol, I don't know which. They ran straight for me so, as any lone adventurer of guild wars would, I ran, too. They didn't follow. Yet, they wouldn't allow me to approach my team mates either.

Any time I'm in the vicinity of the area, long before their dots appeared on my map, they would return post haste and give chase. I couldn't resurrect my team, even though the foes aren't camping even near the corpses. As if they possess some invisible surveillance ability on that area, I couldn't approach my team mates without incurring their quick return.

And all the while that lone monk corsair is still wanding away at me...

It must have been my unlucky day because usually I don't experience all the AI bugs together in one mob encounter.

Of course, this isn't always the case or the game would be a pure exercise in frustration, but these AI issues have occurred a few times for me and, I feel, if they are a feature, they are detrimental to the game.

[ducktape]

I've experienced a lot of the problems listed...

Permanent Aggrolock II - I got chased by a Stone Summit Gnasher across half of the map in Grenth's Footprint. I stopped to kill him and he started to run away after Koss hit him once with his hammer. I also got chased by a Stone Summit Heretic and Stone Summit Ranger for about 4 radar lenghts in the same area, eventually I had to run down a winding path and they cast a snare on me while I was below them and managed to catch and kill me, which meant my party wiped. So far, this is very rare for me, thankfully.

Endless AoE Running - I did not use any AoE on the enemies, but they frequently start running away after taking 1-2 hits with a weapon, when their health is really high so they should not be running, and they will keep running for the most part and not stop. Occasionally they will stop to cast one spell or wand me, but as long as you chase them they will keep running. They should only run around in proximity of their monster friends. This happens with pretty much every enemy group I fight, although I did notice that the monsters don't run like crazy very often in Cantha and they run like crazy in every fight in Tyria and Elona. If a monster starts running and I switch to another target that is attacking my party, the monster stops running. If I kill off half the warriors in the monster group that is attacking, the casters no longer run for some reason. This also happens sometimes where one of my monks will run off of my radar screen when trying to kite away from an opponent, if I always throw down the Heroes and Henchmen flag at my location it doesn't happen as often.

Super-Aggro - A group of monsters at the edge of my radar screen, i.e. approximately 3 aggro bubbles away, will suddenly run over and attack me for no reason. Sometimes this will also cause another group or two of their friends to run over and attack me, although the additional groups were not even on my radar screen. So far, I have only had this happen in Elona.

[Feminist Terrorist]

I've had a very similar experience as Persephone has. It's very frustrating, and definitely not something I enjoy. While I enjoy most of the game mechanics, and the scenery is beautiful, the AI detracts greatly from my enjoyment of the game.

[Beat_Go_Stick]

Originally Posted by ducktape

Super-Aggro - A group of monsters at the edge of my radar screen, i.e. approximately 3 aggro bubbles away, will suddenly run over and attack me for no reason. Sometimes this will also cause another group or two of their friends to run over and attack me, although the additional groups were not even on my radar screen. So far, I have only had this happen in Elona.

Could that have been the new enemy spotters? I've noticed they see me pretty far out of aggro range and send out a patrol to dispatch me and my party post haste.

I didn't say it earlier but I have also experience all of the OP's issues before. Some before Factions and some not until I picked the game back up (hunting IDSs would often end up with Mergoyles chasing me across the map just to cast their stupid spell and run away, for example).

Hopefully the devs eyes will see this thread as a little bit of free QA and take a look at the aggro code for at least a couple of these things

[Muse of Shadows]

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Like Avarre, I never really experienced any of this. Groups have stayed aggro on members that run away and will turn around and charge them again if that person starts walking back to them (thus re-aggroing), but if that person runs away, stops and waits there for a little bit instead of turning back around, then the mob will eventually unaggro. I have seen a lot of people who run away, stop, then come back before waiting long enough, then running away again when the mob comes back after them and repeats this over and over not realizing that they just need to wait longer before running back.

I moved 4-5 full radar screens away, then went afk (food break) for 45 minutes. When I returned, as soon as those little red dots apeared on my radar again, they re-agro'd (I was not in the "danger zone"). Other experiances with this issue, I often do not even have them on my radar at all.

Anyways, good to see someone competent post on this subject. Only addition I have seen is every once in a while (was a great deal worse just after the ai update), would be henchmen and heroes start casting a spell, then break casting to run away REPEATEDLY.

/signed to fixing

[cosyfiep]

yep, have seen most of the posted problems.
permaggro-----even thru the whole zone, never able to get back and rez (even when its not a monk character left standing----made most of my heros /mo with a rez skill so they can pick us up later).

will comment on the heros:
I put most of them on defense since they have the idea that killing anything within the zone I am in is ok (most noteable the eles). However, Koss on defense wont fight until I do, even if I call a target and start running....he I must put on offense. The monks have ideas of their own which I have yet to comprehend. And I have noticed that when I call a target most of the henchies arent fighting it...nor will they (I noticed this when I was dead and the target I had called was just about dead as well, all the henchies were fighting someone else even though the target was called before I died---well we all died and it was just about the last thing still standing!) Also noted that picking the target for the hero doesnt work either....have tried to get them to aggro first, nope, have tried to change them from the target they are bashing on, nope....not sure if its just me and my hubby or there is somekind of bug. (my hubby was dead and locked Koss onto a target, he never would engage that enemy even after my hubby was rezzed.....)

AI kourman monks always run INTO my group and we slaughter him/them quickly.

Bugs/plants dont seem to do these things....the healer stays put while we kill it off, same with the skrees....its just the 'human' like enemys that seem to be headless chickens for me.

was thinking of changing my monks to smite and then changing my eles to monking skills just so we can get more heals then the monk can run all he wants! ( and even had that ducko run off my radar as well......had to run around awhile to figure out where he had gotten to, in the middle of a mission no less!---he could have just asked for a pee break )

good post hope it keeps going without the flames (nice to read too)